Wednesday, December 20, 2017

Should States be able to secede from America? We asked you answered - Note for a discussion, "E Pluribus Unum? What Keeps the United States United."


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Welcome to Third Rail With OZYour electrifying TV show where we debate provocative hot topics each week. Last week, we asked: Should states be able to vote for independence? You answered, and here are your thoughts, edited for clarity.

THOMAS NOONE, CHARLEROI, PENNSYLVANIA

The question we should be asking in many of these cases is, what right did Western colonial powers have to determine the borders of these nations? When this was done, they ignored historic, ethnic borders that in some cases had existed for eons. They did not seek the answers from those living in these areas; they arbitrarily determined these boundaries, often working with illegitimate heads of state in the colonial structure. Now people are being denied the right to self-determination because the allied leaders in these so-called nations are unwilling to give up territory that was not theirs in the first place.

CHRIS HABLES GRAY, SANTA CRUZ, CALIFORNIA

It is called self-determination. People have a right to chose their government. So of course I support the right for states to become independent. It should happen through democratic means: First, a constitutional amendment to allow for it, then each state can vote. I support a 60 percent threshold for voting for independence — one doesn’t want to embark on such a process with a bare majority. We see that problem with Brexit and the struggle of the Catalans.
California is denied full representation due to the electoral college and other aspects of the U.S. system. We pay much more into the U.S. government than we get back, and our votes for president count for much less than those of any other state residents. … Wyoming’s votes are worth 3.6 times what a California vote is worth for president, for example. How is this fair?

PATRICIA COHEN, NEW YORK

I live in a state that gives far more revenue to the federal government than it receives, but our rights, wishes and preferences do not have equal power to the radical-right states who are, by and large, living off the revenue we provide. In fact, there is no consideration whatsoever as to what our voters have demonstrated to be our agenda, only contempt. I would gratefully vote for New York to create an alliance with California and some other states of like-minded sensibilities to secede from the U.S. and form our own country.

GERALD CARTER, WEST PALM BEACH, FLORIDA

United we stand, divided we fall. True in 1776. True in 1860 and true in 2017. Anytime we are divided, we allow an enemy to be right on our border.
NASH MILANI
These states we know of today, like Spain or the U.K., are remnants of empires. “Spain” doesn’t really exist, nor was it ever united. Two royals got married and joined two kingdoms. That doesn’t suddenly make everyone Spanish. And it’s the majority ethnic group that takes center stage, so the neglected want a voice. As for California, I think if the support mounts enough for a vote, then it should get one.

HECTOR CARRASQUILLO SERRANO
Not one state in the union would be able to be self-sufficient. We need each other, and the beauty of our country is that we can have completely different points of view but can find a way to coexist by the give-and-take of our democracy.

ERIC INGMAN, MINNEAPOLIS
I don’t agree that there has to be an explicit secession provision somewhere for a secessionist referendum to be legitimate. Legality is a construction under a specified domain, and that domain is moot in the context of a law that reaches beyond it. Secession chosen democratically is outside the legal domain of the state.

Secondly, democracy is a substitute for violence. Secession is in some cases justified and right. If the only alternative to a regime is violence, that is an implicit repudiation of democracy and fails as an application of fundamental human rights or values. The state’s interest in protecting its citizens from violence compels it to accept the democratic expression of secessionist sentiment; otherwise, it places itself on the side of violence against its own citizens.

STEVE FOSTER, EAST MILLCREEK, UTAH
The U.S. Constitution does not provide for it but also does not forbid it, and reserves all non-forbidden rights to the states and the people. But anyway, constitutions themselves derive from democratic processes (thereby inferring a right to democratically secede).

THOMAS HASARA
Democratic values would say an organization freely entered into should be one you are free to leave (or dissolve). I don’t want to get into the obvious evil that is slavery, but the Confederate states should have been allowed to leave the Union without being attacked by the North.

JON KOLB
I wonder how the national debt would be handled if a state left the union. I can’t believe a state leaving would not be responsible for their share of the debt.

OZY Editors, OZY AuthorContact OZY Editors

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Donna Turner · 

We (Georgia and other southern states) entered into what we were led to believe was a voluntary union in the 1700s (much like a marriage) and with the first paragraph of the Declaration of Independence as a guide- When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, .... - I would say yes. However since the Civil War- we have learned that we are not free to leave union, ...See More
LikeReply5Nov 4, 2017 1:22amEdited
Robert Kerns · 

Laughable!!
LikeReply2Nov 4, 2017 2:28am
Nina Lee St. Anger
Your reasons have to be legal. Otherwise, it's just being a traitor. Wanting to leave the union in order to keep slaves isn't a legitimate reason. The Colonies had an entire list of legitimate grievances with the Crown and it still turned to civil war. However, these grievances were acknowledged as truth by the rest of the world - and eventually England.
LikeReply1Nov 4, 2017 11:13amEdited
James Tackett
At this point there are a lot of Yankees who wouldn't feel bad about the South seceding.
LikeReplyNov 5, 2017 10:58pm
Peter Paplawsky · 

Should counties be able to secede from states? Should cities be able to secede from counties? Should certain neighborhoods be able to secede from the city they're now a part of? All stupid questions.
LikeReply8Nov 4, 2017 10:19am
John Owen · 

You, sir, do not understand why cells, or tribes, divide.
Different enough needs must become different entities.
LikeReply1Nov 6, 2017 12:16am
Tyler Emerson · 

Not really. From a purely political science perspective, we still live in a state of anarchy - take what you can, keep what you take by any means necssary, whether that's by democracy or violence.
LikeReplyNov 7, 2017 10:32am
Jake Riesser · 

Actually, counties do divide, and have. For an example, look up Augusta County, VA: at one time it stretched into Kentucky, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan!
LikeReplyNov 7, 2017 7:00pm
Kenneth Parker · 

Contrary to what a couple of writers here have noted, the "North" did not attack the "South". The "South" fired upon, and eventually seized, United States properties. The "South" initiated hostilities while the "North" was still attempting to find a non-violent solution. The "South" was much better prepared for war militarily (in terms of skilled and well trained officers) than the "North" at the beginning of the Civil War, and it took almost 2 full years for the "North" to finally have decently competent general officers capable of using the northern industrial and population superiority to win the war on the battlefields. Had the "South" attempted their secession via "legal" means (congressional action, local plebiscite) the U.S. government would, indeed, have had no "legal" means to prevent them from leaving, and the Taney court would have almost certainly sided with the seceding states.
LikeReply30Nov 2, 2017 5:55pm
Jim O'Dell · 

Not sure what your smoking but glad it's not readily available. I'm amazed you didn't throw in slavery as a cause as well.
LikeReply3Nov 3, 2017 9:24pmEdited
Jeffrey Young · 

Quite possible, had the southern states relied only on peaceful means. But President Lincoln was already soliciting 75,000 short-term volunteers to organize a Union Army to enter the southern states and preserve the federal government's power. Now at that point the southern states would have to contemplate acquiescing or resisting.
LikeReply3Nov 3, 2017 11:13pm
Mike Morrison · 

Jim O'Dell, FFS, slavery was at the very core of the issue.

As for the south having "better trained" soldiers, that's untrue. The North also had competant leaders. McClellan himself, was a master organizer. He only hesitated, because the idea of americans lining up against each other and firing at one another was so ridiculous and repulsive. Due to his nonaggression, he did need to be replaced.

As for the war "taking so long," they didn't example have convoys of trucks and airplanes to move men and supplies about a countryside that is VERY large in area, mountainous, and heavily wooded as ...See More
LikeReply3Nov 4, 2017 3:46am
Diane Munoz
I think the larger question is who gets to keep America? Those who find all of its principles valuable or those who only feel the 2nd amendment has value...? Those who scream about states' rights when they really only desire to deny others their civil rights? As a culture we are meant to grow and evolve, not meant to stagnate and never change, for the benefit of all.
LikeReply8Nov 4, 2017 7:51amEdited
Ann Stewart · 

After we secede Texas, we, the remaining United States of America, would have our (revised to prevent coups like the one we're now experiencing) Constitution.
LikeReplyNov 8, 2017 10:16pm
Mark Englund · 

Let the red states go. It’s long overdue. They have only become harder ,meaner, crueler, and more determined in their fight against human progress. Let them go and turn our energies to good works. The states have never truly united and the ideals and words that inspired us are being lost. Partition and separation now.
David Anderson
They, as in 51% of the half that votes?
LikeReply1Nov 8, 2017 5:27pm

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