Wednesday, February 4, 2015

Russia-Ukraine: Exchanges on this tragic issue (doubtless to be continued).


Readers of this blog: Allow me to highlight  (midway through this entry) a minor comment of my own on this important facebook exchange re Russia-Ukraine.

Given that America has enormous problems of its own, including along its southern frontier -- I would suggest that some drop the notion -- not necessarily held in the United States -- of America being an "international foreign policy"/"arms delivery" supermarket where U.S. solutions/guns can be found at a moment's notice to solve the problems of the world -- at a discount (?) -- that are not necessarily in the well-being/ interests of people who can't find jobs/pay bills in The Land of the Free. ...
Jack Matlock
Yesterday at 3:08pm · Buchanan.org
 · Edited ·
I don't agree with Pat on everything and I would explain some things in different terms, but fundamentally he is right, just as he was in 2003 about the folly of invading Iraq.



U.S.-Russia Clash in Ukraine?
By Patrick J. Buchanan Among Cold War presidents, from Truman to Bush I, there was an unwritten rule: Do not challenge Moscow in its Central and Eastern Europe sphere of influence. In crises over Berlin in 1948 and 1961, the Hungarian Revolution in 1956 and the Warsaw Pact invasion of Prague in 1968…
BUCHANAN.ORG


Like ·  · 
  • 42 people like this.
  • James F Schumaker Pat Buchanan is a knee-jerk isolationist when it comes to U.S. involvement overseas, and I would be extremely cautious about referring to him for anything having to do with foreign policy. HIs previous track record on other issues shows just how poor h...See More
    Yesterday at 3:39pm · Like · 7
  • Сергей Станкевич Yes, fundamentally hi is right. And the only way to deny it is to attack him personally.
    Yesterday at 4:08pm · Like · 4
  • Donna Evans Mimeograph machines turned out to be the more destructive weapons.
    Yesterday at 4:10pm · Like · 1
  • Сергей Станкевич After any crushing weapons are delivered to Ukraine, we will pretty soon see the following:
    (1) the weapons will be in the hands of right-wing "volunteer battalions" that use weapons to fight for power in Kiev;
    (2) the weapons will be sold for money t    ...See More
    Yesterday at 4:27pm · Like · 2
  • Tina Jennings Ad hominem attacks are always the recourse when one is unable to marshal any other convincing arguments.
    Yesterday at 4:53pm · Like · 3
  • Markus Berzborn Buchanan is an isolationist? OK, that is a compliment. The US should indeed be isolated from the more civilized parts of the world. Otherwise there will be no peace whatsoever.
    Yesterday at 5:02pm · Like · 3
  • Mikhail Tsypkin Objecting to the idea of military involvement in Ukraine, I'd rather refer to today's piece by Eugene Rumor and Thomas Graham in the Financial Times. On foreign policy, Buchanan has no other advice but isolationism, whatever the problem. http://www.ft.com/.../da749f54-ab9e-11e4-b05a...




    Arm Ukraine and you risk another Black Hawk Down - FT.com
    The logic is misguided, but it is easy enough to grasp....
    FT.COM
    Yesterday at 5:58pm · Edited · Like · 2
  • Сергей Станкевич Controversial text, but truly right in the main idea. .
    Yesterday at 6:17pm · Like
  • Jack Matlock Refraining from jumping into other people's fights is not isolationism.
    Yesterday at 6:45pm · Like · 7
  • Markus Berzborn Have Afghanistan, Irak, Libya, Syria etc. become less dangerous and more stable by intervening there? Not at all. It just cost billions of dollars. Which the US will never be able to pay back, everyone knows that.
    Yesterday at 6:49pm · Like
  • Markus Berzborn So what's the point of it all? Who profits? Well, the military-industrial complex and financial speculators, i.e. the people who more or less control the USA. And this is the real reason for these interventions.
    Yesterday at 6:51pm · Edited · Like
  • Markus Berzborn The American people do not need these bloody parasites at all. They are just ruining the country and the future of ordinary citizens. So the real uprising must come from the American people. Get rid of all these military and Wall Street criminals, shoot them or do whatever you want with them. But get rid of them.
    Yesterday at 7:33pm · Like
  • William Scott J. Schumaker, 

    if Buchanans logic is so flawed, why don't you make a counter argument?    ...See More
    20 hrs · Like · 2
  • William G. Pigman who is talking about an invasion like Iraq?
    11 hrs · Like
  • Raymond F. Smith Even a blind squirrel gets an acorn every now and then.
    10 hrs · Like · 1
  • Eric Trachtenberg I understand the caution about intervening in Ukraine. Although I disagree with Patrick Buchanan and understand his other very dubious views including a general sympathy for the Far Right, it does not make him wrong this time. His point is especially ...See More
    8 hrs · Edited · Like
  • James F Schumaker William Scott, I have on numerous occasions argued at length in favor of supplying Ukraine with military aid, as most people who follow my posts know. The issue here is Pat Buchanan's suitability as a political analyst. In my opinion, if you want to ma...See More
    7 hrs · Edited · Like · 1
  • William Scott James,

    Thanks for response. I can not see any direct american interest in arming Ukraine, full stop, but will review your post.    ...See More
    7 hrs · Like · 1
  • James F Schumaker William, I have often adopted a similar position to yours. For example, I have been very critical of our interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan. In the case of Iraq in particular, we invaded under false pretenses and proceeded to destroy the balance of...See More
    6 hrs · Like · 1
  • James F Schumaker The momentum is building to supply Ukraine with the arms it needs to defend itself. Six months ago would have been preferable, but better late than never. http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../aa84f696-ac74-11e4-ad71...




    Defense nominee Carter ‘inclined’ to provide U.S. arms to Ukraine
    Ashton Carter at his hearing supported providing lethal...
    WASHINGTONPOST.COM
    5 hrs · Like · 1
  • Paul Fritch Стоящие часы, Jim. Buchanan is having a twice-a-day moment.See Translation
    5 hrs · Like · 2
  • Alexey Kharitontsev Unbelievably arrogant statement Mr. Schumaker! And who would be there to stop US presidents from invading other countries on false pretext, destroying thousands of common people's lives, putting countries like Iraq and Afghanistan to even worth misery than they were before the US "liberation"?
    5 hrs · Like · 3
  • William Scott James,

    Thx for response.    ...See More



    President of Russia
    President of Russia Official Website
    ARCHIVE.KREMLIN.RU
    5 hrs · Edited · Like · 3
  • Eric Trachtenberg I fail to see how Schmaker's statement is arrogant. If we don't approve of invasions, what gives Russia the right to crush the popular will in Ukraine and elsewhere? To me, opposing the will of the people from outside is the real and unforgivable arrogance.
    3 hrs · Edited · Like
  • Jack Matlock Of course they don't have a "right," any more than the U.S. had a "right" to invade Iraq. These things are not, and never have been, decided by abstract principles. They have made it clear that they will not allow the situation to be resolved by milita...See More
    3 hrs · Like · 4
  • Sean Kay for whatever its worth, here's what I wrote on this yesterday. I find it very unsettling, also for whatever its worth, when American's try and have a serious discussion of national interests and security - and when that goes against someone's narrativ...See More



    The Escalation Advocates are Wrong on Ukraine
    Russia remains parked in Ukraine’s east where...
    WARONTHEROCKS.COM
    3 hrs · Like · 2
  • Sean Kay ...also to correct the record about the "growing momentum in DC" - we have a report with 7-8 advocates, John McCain and a few others and some media eager to blow this up. If you look at the general commentary since this rolled out, it has been pretty ...See More
    3 hrs · Like · 1
  • Jack Matlock Excellent essay!
    3 hrs · Like
  • Eric Trachtenberg There are two sets of arguments. One is the moral/rights issue while the other is based in realism. Let's look at the latter. The question is whether giving Ukraine to Moscow will stabilize the situation in E Europe and reduce E-W tensions. This le...See More
    3 hrs · Edited · Like
  • James F Schumaker The "growing momentum" argument will be decided in the next few weeks when the Obama White House decides whether or not to use the option Congress has already given it to extend meaningful military aid to Ukraine. My bet is that the Congress is going to win this one.
    2 hrs · Like
  • Sean Kay That is because this is increasingly becoming a political discussion, not a strategic one. I agree, the ability to keep this from being a political discourse of who can out toughen the other, that is probably already lost. Nonetheless, the allies hav...See More
    2 hrs · Like · 1
  • Bill Johnson The problem with providing weapons to Ukraine is that we have nothing in our arsenal which would enable Ukraine to defeat the Russians. There is no meaningful military aid to be provided, unless meaningful is interpreted to mean aid that makes us feel less guilty about letting Putin take what he wants.
    2 hrs · Like · 1
  • Jack Matlock The more we get involved, the more he will insist on taking. He is not merely a "regional power." No country with ICBMs is. After all, IC means intercontinental and if you can hit more than one continent you are not confined to a region. Also space: R...See More
    2 hrs · Like · 5
  • Sean Kay One would think that these would have been questions our friends in the Brookings study would have made an effort to address before begining the process of logrolling Washington, D.C.
    2 hrs · Like
  • James F Schumaker I'm not sure how the "regional power" moniker got attached to Russia in the first place. It's obviously a global military power, although it might be argued that in other areas it is no longer a global player. With regard to weaponry that Kyiv could u...See More
    2 hrs · Like
  • Bill Johnson The problem with providing defensive weapons to Ukraine is that the Russians are certain to respond with whatever is needed to reestablish superiority, up to and including the use of Russian forces. Our involvement would give Putin all the cover he needs. There are at most 2 countries in the world that could stop the Russians, and neither will do so.
    1 hr · Like · 2
  • Jack Matlock The President himself has used the "regional power" appellation, which can only be viewed as provocative, particularly since the area in question is in its region. I really cannot believe that the president would risk his legacy by choosing a course th...See More
    1 hr · Like · 3
  • Vasily Gatov I think, Ambassador, neither President Pat mentions would understand the case.
    1 hr · Like
  • James F Schumaker Russia needs no pretext to increase its involvement in Ukraine. If Putin wants a pretext, he will manufacture one. We should also realize that demonstrating weakness is even more provocative to Putin than providing support to our friends. If Putin bel...See More
    55 mins · Like
  • Markus Berzborn Does Obama have any positive legacy? Interesting.
    53 mins · Like
  • John Brown Mr. Ambassador: The Buchanan case, in my view, is a complex one. He is wrong (simplifies?) on so many things, including on racial/immigration issues, and yet his evaluation of the Russia-Ukraine situation -- allow me to agree with you -- is not off the mark, despite his generalizations many historians of the Cold War would not agree with. His main point re the above topic, however, that we -- the U.S. -- cannot solve every problem on the globe (we all know the Adams quotation about "monsters to destroy" overseas) is, I believe, well taken, for the basic, down-to-earth reason that we Americans can't afford it, both materially and morally, on a planet where we make up a small segment of the population. Given that America has enormous problems of its own, including along its southern frontier -- I would suggest that some drop the notion -- not necessarily held in the United States -- of America being an "international foreign policy"/"arms delivery" supermarket where U.S. solutions/guns can be found at a moment's notice to solve the problems of the world -- at a discount (?) -- that are not necessarily in the well-being/ interests of people who can't find jobs/pay bills in The Land of the Free. With best wishes, john
    32 mins · Edited · Like · 2
  • Markus Berzborn FIY, there are already US weapons and US military and civil personnel in Ukraine. In fact, have been there for months. At the time of Maidan the protagonists went just in and out of the American embassy to receive their orders and suggestions. That private US mercenaries have been there is also an open secret.
    34 mins · Like
  • Markus Berzborn And another thing for Mr. Trachtenberg who does not know the local situation at all: Ukraine will not be a failed state, it already is. And the Eastern part is just lost for Ukraine. Too much hatred after all this bloodshed and destruction. It is just like Croatia and Serbia in Yugoslavia in the nineties, they won't be able to live peacefully together in one state called "Ukraine" any more. Forget about this.
    30 mins · Like · 1
  • Jack Matlock John, Pat and I often clashed in the White House. And at Geneva over the President's report to Congress on his first meeting with Gorbachev. I know him well. I certainly don't agree with many of his views regarding American history. But the articles he...See More
    30 mins · Like · 1
  • Markus Berzborn Unfortunately I have relatives in the Donetsk area. So I get first hand information daily without having to consult the mass media which are either uninformed or just lying. Most of them most of the time.
    25 mins · Edited · Like
  • Andrij Bilyk It is interesting to me how some folk just want Ukraine to disappear. Why is at? What motivates people who think that?
    22 mins · Like
  • John Brown Mr. Ambassador. Thank you for your kind response. Although having had the privilege of serving under your leadership in Prague (mid-1980s) and sharing with you in Moscow (when I was posted there as Cultural Affairs Officer) a very pleasant, informal dinner at the home (was it in 2001?) of the distinguished Russian translator of "Gone with the Wind," I subsequently failed to bring to your attention -- given that we had lost touch -- my letter of resignation (2003) from the Foreign Service regarding the Bush administration's plans for the War on Iraq: http://www.unc.edu/.../200.../brown_resign/brown_resign.html

    11 mins · Edited · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
  • Markus Berzborn It is not the question what one wants. It is a question of facing reality. Ukraine is not a country, never has been. Not in the borders of the former Soviet republic. It is just an artificial conglomerate. That it would disintegrate one day was clear from the nineties on - i.e. for persons with a sober mind and knowledge of history. Which most people do not have of course.
    10 mins · Like
  • John Brown

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